GUI design compatibility, [bng], [button], [knob]

[porres]

As discussed in #1904

I think PlugData could have an option or a mode that preserves the design of original Vanilla GUI objects like [bng]. The bang button changes a lot in proportion! It's kinda like the same issue with [knob] and this affects the patches and I also wrote about this in #1901 and #901

The [zbiplot] and old [circle] are examples of patches that cannot function as they should or were intentionally designed for because of that.

It's cool we have lua graphics and I think that the more GUIs we design with lua, the better, but it'd also be ideal if we could avoid some issues.

Another object that comes to mind is [button]

As for [knob] I was proposing that we could make things just the same, like a 'style' mode. For button we could do the same, but for iemguis that is just complicated. So I'm thinking of what could be done here...

one thing that comes to mind is being able to set this under settings? I know, not great... but what would be better?

[timothyschoen]

Right now, very few people use the vanilla theme, so I'm not sure if we should add even more options to make it more like pd-vanilla. And even if we added these options, that wouldn't solve the [zbiplot] issue, since almost nobody uses that theme, we will need a different solution for that anyway.

The guis in plugdata are gonna look different than they are in pd-vanilla, because they will always be 2 different apps with different goals and design ideals. IMO, there is not much value in making plugdata look exactly like pd-vanilla, if you want something that looks exactly like that, use pd-vanilla. Our goal was never to look identical to pd-vanilla, the goal is that patches are usable.

Also regarding ELSE objects like [knob] and [button]: it makes sense that the pd-vanilla ELSE versions look like they fit in pd-vanilla. But when copying them to plugdata, I need them to fit in with the design of other plugdata objects, to make it feel like a coherent package of GUIs. Imagine if we changed all the ELSE objects in Pd to look exactly like they look in plugdata, they would feel out of place right? Same thing with the [knob] and [button] design in pd-vanilla, it doesn't fit as well with plugdata's GUI style.

We already added a bunch of theming options to make it look more like Pd and they are not widely used. I think it's hard to justify adding any more.

[alcomposer]

@porres can you share examples where a vanilla patch in plugdata is unusable?

I accept that a patch may not display correctly. Given that fonts will affect object spacing, and indeed this is an issue (or non-issue) even for pd-vanilla.

I think it would be useful to see how problematic this is in a scientific way.

It still may not merit a vanilla 1:1 mode, but at least we can understand the scope of the problem, and just how many user this effects, and by how much.

Aesthetic differences aside, if a patch is impossible to use at all, then it's good to know the extent of that.

:-)

[porres]

@alcomposer the problematic/unusable examples I gave are the [circle] and [zbiplot] objects, but I know it is stretching it.

[porres]

Imagine if we changed all the ELSE objects in Pd to look exactly like they look in plugdata, they would feel out of place right?

Not really sure, but the thing is, we already have a [bng] alternative in ELSE: [button]. And we can do whatever we want. I would really like to make them look exactly the same! So we can have different default values (not that much of a big deal) but the ability to choose between different designs.

The main difference is that you have some sort of "frame area", and is something we can do as an option.

While we're at it, it is in my plans to offer alternatives from simply ALL iemguis... and why not even the 'atom' boxes. And we could enjoy this opportunity to get more creative with the design choices/differences then.

[porres]

you have some sort of "frame area"

I would say "border", but it's not, cause as I see it, a "border" would have a constant border width, but that's not what it is... it's like you have some percentage/proportional frame.

Hmmm, I just wanted to say that a constant border would make more sense to me and it's what I would like to do for the ELSE GUI objects ([button] and [knob])

[porres]

As discussed on the discord channel, maybe what bothers me is that the proportion/area of the bang button is way too small, and same goes with the [knob].

For the toggle buttong, fot instance, the proportion of the frame around seems good

this is more evident if the GUI is bigger, I guess for smaller bang buttons this is somewhat ok and maybe you decided to make this proportion that way considering smaller buttons.

Well, I would hope that you could consider other design options and make it more like the way the toggle is for [bng] and [knob] at least.

The knob size issue is listed in #901 but it's particularly troublesome for exchanging patches between vanilla and plugdata. specially with the design of MERDA modules, as mentioned in #1901

Maybe you can keep the same design principle but just make the round button part larger for bangs and knobs, huh? What do you say?